Podcasts and Audio

Transcript for Lianne Hewson IWD2023

Speaker 1 – Lianne Hewson

Speaker 2 – Unknown

Speaker 3 – Rose Young-French

Speaker 4 – Natali Guevara

Amplify your voice with Sunrise Diversity Podcasts, brought to you by Ace Holds The Space.

Embracing equity and difference, challenging discrimination and changing attitudes.

The Sunrise on diversity, diversity,

diversity,

diversity, diversidad, diversity.

Please be aware, our speakers do cover sensitive topics. Some of these will include discrimination, domestic abuse, and bereavement.

Speaker 1 – Lianne

Again, you’re going to go into your working lives… And a lot of people say, well, there just aren’t many of them, you know, we don’t need to worry because there’s just not many black and brown people in North Devon that we need to be thinking about. But in the last 12 years of me being in Exeter, which is much more diverse than than North Devon is changing, the world is changing, Devon is changing. And we, it is up to us, to move and welcome those individuals that are coming to work with us, who are coming to, to live in our towns and our villages in an equitable way, and support them. So for me, my journey and the work that I’m doing across Devon county council is going into spaces where I’m challenging people who are at a much senior level to me, and at first, that was really intimidating. And you’re going to find that. You may be that one voice out of an entire group of people that see something that isn’t quite right. And it’s going to feel scary and you’re going to say I can’t do this because you could be worried about whether or not, am I going to lose my job, could they try and get rid of me. And it happens. People have been, you know, gently pushed out of organisations because they’ve challenged the things that they feel are unjust but … knowing what’s right, and knowing that you are doing the right thing, it will always win, it will always win in whatever you’re doing.

So whether you’re challenging issues affecting the LGBT community, neurodiversity, disabilities, gender, race, religion, it is so important that we, we champion that work. So and as the new generation of police officers, paramedics, nurses, whatever it is that you’re gonna go into, it’s so important to challenge, maybe some of those dinosaurs that are working for the organisations that you are going into.

One of the things that I wanted to talk about as well as about being your authentic self, and I definitely feel as though there have been so many times that I’ve changed who I am, whether it’s my personality, the way that I dress, to fit in and to, to look the way that people want me to. And I know that I have this constant, this battle constantly with my son at school, because, you know, when you’re in school, it’s you’ve got to dress this way, and you can’t have your hair in a certain way. You can’t wear makeup, you can’t, you know, do all of these things. And then you come to college like young people, and you’ve got that freedom of expression and you can start experimenting with your hair and piercings, and whatever else it is that you want to do. But then you go back, you know, you start going into the working world, and people will judge you whether or not you’ve got facial piercings, tattoos, pink hair, you wear a religious item of clothing, whether you wear a hijab, or you’d like to wear a traditional Asian wear, whatever it might be. People have their biases, they have their prejudices, and they’re going to judge you. And so as people working in in the environment, I think it’s so important that when we see how others are being treated, and if we see somebody who is retreating, so they’re changing the way, who they are, and their authentic self, to look the way that other people want them to, I think it’s so important that we champion those individuals, and we

empower them, and we’d be their support and they’re allies. Because ally ship is so important. In whatever we’re doing, being a good friend, and whether or not you’ve got nothing in common with that person, people knowing that someone’s got your back. It’s just it’s so empowering. And I can tell you it can mean the difference between a person succeeding or failing of what it is that they’re going to do. And if that someone had mentioned about it, kind of, you know, being in your head and not being allowed to do things, and I just just wanted to touch upon the fact that I’ve always lived by the mantra that if you can see it, you can be it. And I think for example, if that is, it was explaining that if there are no black and brown, and people with disabilities, going into the world of sport or whatever it might be, for a young person thinking about their journey and thinking about where they’re gonna go, it’s not even on their radar. You know, we only had our first, ethnically diverse Prime Minister last year. You know, 2022. We’ve never had anybody as Prime Minister from a Black, Asian, you know, they’ve all been white. So, hopefully that is then going to be, you know, regardless of what your thoughts are on politics, that is going to be, you know, an inspiration to so many young people to think, you know what, I can do that, that’s something that I can achieve. And when you look at politics in general, and our councils, it’s very white, it’s very white and male dominated area. There aren’t a lot of women that go into politics there aren’t, so you need to really think about actually that ‘seeing it ‘being it’, that is what I can do.

And it wasn’t that long ago that, you know, there weren’t very many women female police officers, there weren’t, you know, paramedics. And, you know, things are evolving on the backs of those amazing women, we’ve all been able to think actually, I’m going to, I’m going to do it, I’m going to be whatever I want to be. So again, I’d say in terms of, you know, International Women’s Day and when we think about Equity, as amazing young men, that I hope that I am raising a really strong and powerful young man who can be a good ally to women who can respect women. And we can we can help everybody come up together so that it’s about achieving, having Equity.

In terms of my role, I know that when you think of the council, it’s kind of like, yeah potholes.. and the work that I’m doing at the moment is trying to work with organisations like Sunrise, who are small, voluntary organisations who do some of the most amazing work in the communities. As you go into your careers, you will come into contact with people who are in very difficult situations, whether it be domestic violence, poverty, social exclusion, whatever it might be. And it’s really important that you start thinking about the organisations that are around you, because I’m, I’m presuming a lot of you, you know, were brought up in North Devon, it’s what, you know, what you’ve called home. And for someone like myself, this is the first time I’ve ever been to North Devon, I’ve never been to Barnstaple before. But, it’s building those connections and understanding your community, understanding what it is that you can do to support and empower those people. So if anybody’s got any questions, or challenges, I’d welcome them?

Speaker 2 – Unknown

How does if you have it come across as really patronising or like, kind of making it about yourself?Is that, I think, if you try to hard, it can look a bit like it, you’re being like, I’m helping this person.

Speaker 1 – Lianne

Yeah, no, I completely understand and I think it’s a balance, and it’s something you’re going to learn. I’ve heard that a lot from colleagues of mine who will say, Well, you know, it’s not really my place to say anything, or I shouldn’t do anything, but it’s a it’s about being an ally. So sometimes.. it might not be about taking credit. So you could come across maybe as kind of bragging or, you know, being about you if you start taking the credit for the work that’s happening. But if you can be supportive and empower the people around you, whether that be somebody with a disability from the LGBT community, ethnically diverse, to use their voice, that is how you’re using your privilege and your power to support them. And I think it comes with time as well. And also, I’ve learned as well about picking your battles, I think sometimes you can speak to people, and it’s like, it’s going in one ear, and it’s out the other, so I put my time and my resources and my energy to where it matters. But I would say if it’s always coming from a place of good intention, it will never come across as that way. And if it does, you know, you apologise and you just keep it moving. And it all works out.

It can be quite a lonely road sometimes when you’re challenging inequalities. Last week, I was invited to speak at a senior leadership meeting. So they are the very top people across our organisation who I have the impression, you know, they’ve got all the answers, paid the big bucks, they know what they’re doing. And actually, I’m sat in a room with a group of people who didn’t have the answers, particularly when it’s addressing diversity and inequalities. And so one of the things that I’m really fortunate to do is a reciprocal mentoring. So it means that somebody from an ethnically diverse background or somebody with disabilities, mentors somebody at a senior leadership position to understand what it’s like to have a lived experience of discrimination. And having that one to one interaction, I find that with people, particularly in senior leadership positions, they don’t like being called out in front of everybody. So if you challenge them in front of a group of people, you’re just going to get that, “Don’t you talk to me like that”. So I think doing that on one-on-one has been really helpful.

And I would say that if any of you get the opportunity to have mentoring, I think is really important. I haven’t had it and I’m going to look at getting a mentor. But for me, I would say that kind of challenging from other people is about maybe reading the room, I’ve understood that I need to take that person to the side and talk about it.

But I get backlash every single day. I get challenged on, you know, what aboutism, which is kind of if you’re talking about a particular group of people, so if I’m talking about the LGBT community. Well, what about people with disabilities? What about somebody who’s neurodivergent. And it’s not disregarding the fact that those people are really important. They’ve all got the needs, but at that moment in time, that’s what I’m talking about. So I think it’s developing a thick skin. I’ve learned that it’s developing a thick skin, and not taking it personal as well. I’m learning just to, let it go over my head.

Speaker 2 – Unknown

What do you do, if you accept that you don’t understand?

Speaker 1 – Lianne

I think that’s really valid. And because I would say that there’s a lot of things I don’t understand, I’m very much early on my journey of understanding what it means to be an individual to identify as non binary, for example, I don’t have anybody in my personal life who identifies as non binary. But I don’t think you need to kind of personally understand to be able to treat somebody with respect. I think opening up and learning about them is the best way to start. And that’s something I’m doing every single day. But I don’t, you know, there’s so many different people that we meet in life that we just don’t get, you don’t understand them, we don’t get their values. And but it’s about finding that commonality and respecting them, I think it’s just so important. And knowing if you can see that that person is being treated differently because of their identity, calling out…

So I think that, but I think we all have a long way to go in terms of particularly with our transgendered communities with our LGBT, various LGBT communities. I think we’ve got a long way to go to understand or understand them, their needs, and how we can support them. I think it’s really important.

Speaker 3 – Rose

For me, it’s about representation as well. You know, when I was growing up, I never saw any black and brown faces anywhere apart from there was a TV newscaster, which was Trevor McDonald. So that’s showing my age now. But I think it’s really about representation. Seeing a woman doing a typical male in the male environment, or seeing a black and brown face, you know, in the higher hierarchies of organisations or companies. So I think it’s about representation. I think the more you see that, the more you get used to it.

Speaker 1 – Lianne

Yeah

Speaker 3 – Rose

I’m still looking. And…

Speaker 1 – Lianne

I completely agree, I think it’s so important that representation is, is at the forefront of everything that we’re doing. But also as well, it’s not about tokenism, because I find myself so for example, in within my organisation, I would consider myself to be what they call a palatable brown person. Which means that again, I don’t have a name that’s difficult to pronounce, I speak English. So they’ll say, oh, you know, we’ve consulted with black and brown ‘Lianne’.. tick, and it’s not about that. We want people, I’ve met so many people who have been told that they need to change their hairstyle, the way that they dress, in order to fit in and get on. And, and, you know, your Afro is offensive. How the hell can an afro, your natural curly hair be offensive to anybody? Or it’s unprofessional? Being You know, professionalism is objective. So if anyone ever says to you, the way that you dress, or the way that you look is unprofessional? Yeah, I tell them to get a reality check on that. Because it’s yeah, it’s prehistoric. So yeah, I would say that representation is so important and it’s ensuring that it is a broad spectrum of, of representation. So it’s about every single person having their, having their chance.

And you will see it, as you out into your your, your jobs, you’ll start looking around and thinking actually, how many people with disabilities? How many people from ethically diverse backgrounds, or LGBT are around me? How many people and what do we need to do to try and encourage them to come into the profession? I think is really important too.

Speaker 4 – Natali

I think as well as being that, apart from you being the voice of others, if something happened to you, a minority, you should speak out as well. Because otherwise, think about those going behind you as well. There could be, you might cope with it and be like, it’s Okay, I can cope with somebody calling me whatever. But think about all the other people, last, the people you are doing it for. So I think it’s good as well to report them and let them know somebody that you feel are being discriminated or that somebody is doing something (illegible) to them.

Speaker 1 – Lianne

Yes, being a bystander is so important. And we talk a lot about them today within our organisation, because people will say, Oh, yeah, I’ve had that that person is always saying to derogatory things about women or is racist or whatever it might be. But just standing there and not saying anything, you’re almost as complicit as a person that is doing it. You need to be able to actively speak out and yeah, support them..

Speaker 4 – Natali

Or if it happened to you personally, I think that’s the thing if it happened to you, personally, you should say it, because it’s hard, saying something to people will it stop the person from doing it?

Speaker 1 – Lianne

Yeah, and I would also say as well, one of the things that I’ve learned, kind of going through my late teens and early 20s was that the people that you might be friends with at the moment and the social groups that you have, they might not be your friends forever. So they’re, they might, your views, your, your life choices, they’re going to grow, they’re going to change over time and that’s okay, you’re gonna, you know, I’ve realised that I’ve outgrown quite a lot of the people that I went to school with who were friends of mine. And you just, you might hear things, you know what, that isn’t who I am, I don’t have those views. I don’t have those opinions and I’m going to find my people. You know, the people that I have aligned value to, so I think that’s really important in terms of understanding, of becoming an anti-racist.

Speaker 3 – Rose

I think it’s really important as well, going back to what that young man said, comment, as well. We don’t have to understand. I think it’s more um.. I was listening to a podcast a few months ago, and he’s, the guy on there, the person on there was a transgender. And he said, It’s not about understanding, it’s about compassion. So you know, we can have compassion rather than

understanding and we’re working from a place of you know, that place rather than…

Speaker 1 – Lianne

Acceptance, Love Kindness, yes

Speaker 3 – Rose

Yes, yeah. Because we wouldn’t want to be treated in that way yourself so think what that’s like for that person.

Speaker 1 – Lianne

Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. Thank you

Thank you so much everybody.

Thankyou so much Lianne… (clapping)

You’ve been listening to Sunrise Diversity Podcasts brought to you by ACE Holds The Space.

The Sunrise on diversity, diversity, diversity, diversity.

Transcript for Julie Adnams Hatch Speaker with Q&A

Topic: “Equity or Invisibility”

Speaker 1 – Julie Adnams Hatch (main speaker)

Speaker 2 – Roshani Ramass (interviewer/production)

Speaker 3 – Rose Young-French

Speaker 4 – Natali Guevara

Speaker 5 – Tanya West

Speaker 6 – Sophie Urwin

Please be aware, our speakers do cover sensitive topics. Some of these will include discrimination, domestic abuse, and bereavement.

Amplify your voice with Sunrise diversity podcasts brought to you by Ace Holds The Space. Embracing equity and difference, challenging discrimination and changing attitudes. The sunrise on diversity diversity,

diversity, diversity, diversidad,

diversity…

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Isn’t it? Wonderful? absolute quiet.

Speaker 1 – Julie

Give it time, it will change.

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Well, the silence has been nice because as we it’s quite golden, isn’t it? Because today has been really quite a busy busy day. And everybody’s been flying around the sunrise diversity event and it’s been an interesting time. And there’s been some powerful speakers as well so far. I’m very, very pleased to be here and honoured to invite you. Your name is Julie Adnams Hatch.

Speaker 1 – Julie

Yes,

Speaker 2 – Roshani

I hear, and you’ve created quite a little bustle around you because you sound like a very interesting woman and you take, you can hold a lot of space, can’t you? That’s what it feels like to me that you’ve got this kind of way about you and an attraction. People could just feel that they can speak to you.

Speaker 1 – Julie

I’ve had a fair bit of practice. Yeah,

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Fabulous. Well, would you mind sharing a little bit more of Julie out in the ether, of, outside of this event so that people who are listening to this podcast and are interested in Sunrise Diversity and International Women’s Day today, get an idea of what the day has been about and about yourself as well, very keen to hear you.

Speaker 1 – Julie

Very pleased to. Okay, so thank you everybody. Right, Julie Adams hatch, I’m chair of a National Disability Association. I’m part of a cross party, Westminster think tank where we are endeavouring to improve disability representation in Parliament. I’m an independent adviser to Devon and Cornwall police with a lot of attention on keeping women and children safe, and also hate crime. And when my husband was in his last few months, seven years ago, he asked three promises of me, one of which was to continue fighting for people like him and I. And he was very clever, very wise, because he knew that if I’ve got a fight on my hands, I will survive. We were soulmates. We are soulmates. I’m still married to him. And I have to wave at the moon whenever I see it, because that’s where he’s waiting for me. He gave me the courage to push further and harder than I’ve ever done before to try and improve the outlook for more people. And maybe to encourage people to be a little braver in what they do in their lives, regardless of what it is they do. So I’ve started off with thinking about what I’m going to call this and I’m calling it “Equity, or Invisibility”.

I’m 73 years old. I’m a woman. I’m in a wheelchair, and other things as well. I’m invisible to most of the world. Hmm. purple hair. Oh, I have a rather stunning assistance dog. Until I had the dog, in a wheelchair, nobody spoke to me.. invisible. Always below the eyeline. I still get spoken to like I’m five years old. Hello, dear. Do you need a hand? No, thank you. I’ll ask if I need anything. Oh, you go to the hospital for an appointment. The receptionist looks over your head. And they take the letter from the person standing behind you and I go Excuse me? Oh, no, it’s all right dear, you’re booked in. No, I’m not. That person isn’t with me. Where’s your carer? I don’t need one. Oh, okay. “Equity or invisibility”. Now, I see I’ve been preempted here with this cartoon. But I want to just say to you about the difference between equality and equity.

Image imagine these are three boxes, big boxes all the same size. And you want to watch something going on. It might be football, it might be dancing, skating, you’re at a gig, and one of you is quite tall and able to see over people’s heads. The other one is quite short and are unable to see past the back end of the people standing in front of them. And the one in the middle, who’s kind of peering over shoulders. Equality is giving each of those people a box to stand on. Those boxes are all the same size, first three people, their height differences remain. So the shortest person still is struggling to see. But that is equality when everybody has the same size box. But if you take the box from the tallest person, and you put it on the box for the shortest person, everybody has the opportunity to see what they are watching from the same or similar level. And that is equity. It is completely different to equality. And as a person with disability, I don’t want to be treated differently. I want to be seen for what I can do, and how I do it, and what I can offer to community and society. And if I have nothing else, I have a big mouth. And I will always use it. But it’s not easy. It never is easy. Every time I go somewhere where there is accessibility difficulties.

I’ve gone for a night out with my friends, and I’ve checked up beforehand. You see now that’s one of the things that people forget about people in wheelchairs, we can’t go anywhere without doing our homework. We don’t have spontaneity, I have to ring up and find out whether somewhere is accessible. And where can I park my car. So I can safely get my wheelchair and my dog without getting run over and where the car isn’t going to get run into. And I do all of my homework. And then we get to the restaurant or the pub. And at some point in the evening, I want to go to the toilet. Now when you’re just able bodied. You go to the toilet most people don’t even notice you’ve nipped out for a wee, you’ve gone, you’ve come back again. When I want to go for one I have to say to somebody, can you hold the dog for me and I have to move my wheelchair and somebody is standing in the way or there’s a chair in the way and everybody watches me go to the toilet. Not quite literally, but I get there,and there’s a step to go up in order to get to the accessible toilet, which is called a disabled toilet. And I never figured that one out. Because if it’s a disabled toilet, it doesn’t work. And it’s no use to me anyway. And people wonder why I get just a little bit upset. And then I say to them, can I speak to the manager, please? Why? Well, I’d like to speak to the manager about accessibility. It’s an old building, you know, I know it’s an old building doesn’t mean you can’t make it accessible for me. And we have these conversations, but it does take courage. One of the jobs my amazing dog does for me, and you can all be aghast but I’m actually agoraphobic, which means going out of my front door is incredibly difficult. And two years of pandemic. I was on holiday. I didn’t have to do that battle because I couldn’t go out. It was really, really good for me. And my GP said, Oh, Julie, I’m so worried about you when we could start going out. You’re not going to get out of that door are you? I hope I will. But of course I have my amazing assistance dog. And when I have her by my side. My job is to make sure she’s okay. Her job is to look after me. We look after each other she takes me out of the front door. And whenever I’m going somewhere that is completely new, I’m a complete wreck before I leave home. I, I can be all dolled up to the nines ready to go to the Mayors ball. And I have a panic attack. Oh, it’s lovely. All my makeups rundown my face, my beautifully coiffed hair. It’s wet and hanging. My clothes are sticking to me and I think oh, why am I bothering to go? Because you promised and because you’re going with other people. And because because, if you don’t go this time, you won’t go next time. It doesn’t make me clever, better than anybody else, anything like that. It’s just what my life is. And my life has become one of problem solving. I solve problems for me on a daily basis, and I try and solve problems for other people on a daily basis. Because to me, that’s the importance. It doesn’t matter what the difficulties are that you have. There will always be somebody who has different difficulties. And I won’t say worse difficulties. Our problems are our own. I actually have people say to me quite often, I’m so sorry, you’re in a wheelchair. I’m not. I’m really glad I’ve got a wheelchair. I’ve got freedom. I’ve got independence, because I can go where I want to go, I can’t always go to every place I want to go to, but then that’s another campaign for me. Oi, you’re not accessible, what are you going to do about it? And I have now something of a reputation when people hear the name, Adnams Hatch, and they go, Oh, we better talk to her because she wouldn’t go away, will she. No, I won’t, because it’s important to me that you put something right, because that makes it better, for other people. It makes it better for me to, but it makes it better for everybody. And that’s what’s so important about understanding equity. Because we’ve got, we’ve all of us got so much to offer. And every one of us has got a sore spot. And I don’t know if you understand about sore spots, but I always say they sit about there, Okay. My sore spot is people who think their premises are accessible and then not… yesh, yesh, yesh, and it’s like the water torture.

And I’ve got a hole there. And I tell the police this as well, because I always say that when you get abuse all the time, and the police do get abuse all the time, there will be a trigger point. For everybody. There is a trigger point. And I bet if I look at each of you in this room now, I bet you’ve all got a sore spot. It is one little thing that people do or say to you, and you think yesh, not again, I can’t deal with that. We all have it. It is understanding that you have that. And then it’s deciding what you do with that. No, you don’t have the right to say to me, why on earth have you got purple hair? You can say to me? Your hair’s very different. Why did you have it purple? Because I like purple. And because I like people to see my hair before they see my wheelchair. Okay. When parents take children away from me in the supermarket, because Junior is saying, oh why is that lady in a wheelchair? And I go like, let them come and ask me. Ooh. Because parents think I’m going to tell them exactly what’s wrong with me. No, I just say to them, it’s okay. My wheelchair makes it possible for me to come shopping and if I stand on my feet, not only does it hurt, but I’m likely to face plant on the floor and look really stupid. Oh, okay. It’s enough. That’s all they need. They need a quick easy answer. I do go to schools to talk as well. And I went to Fremington Primary School a few years ago. And I got asked lots of things and I said to the head teacher beforehand, somebody will ask me how I go to the toilet. They always ask me how I go to the toilet and I always say very carefully but just like you. Oh, okay, but one young man nearly had me in tears. Because he asked me a question that nobody has ever asked me child or adult. What happens if your wheelchair breaks down? Hmm, get it under control Julie answer this without getting in a complete la.. I just wanted to sit and sob and I said, I have, I’m I’m really stuck. Because if my wheelchair isn’t working, I’m in trouble. If my car isn’t working, I’m in trouble.

Three weeks ago, I was visiting family in Suffolk and I have charges for my batteries, I have a charger for my battery and I plugged in that night. Oh, it’s never put a red light on before. Okay, what’s going on.. my battery charger died. There I was, in Suffolk for six days with two batteries, fortunately, both fully charged before I left, but both of them virtually flat by the time I came home and I had no means of charging them. I cannot begin to tell you how that made me feel. I had to sit on the panic. I had to hide how I felt about it from my family because they would have been distraught. And I got home and we thrashed around until we resolved the problem. So now I have two battery chargers. Hah, because when I’m away, I’ve got backup. If you don’t use a wheelchair that needs charging, would you think that you would need two battery chargers? And if, I’ve never thought I needed two battery chargers, because my battery charger had always worked? But is, is this problem solving and panic and courage and keep.. moving.. forward.. and I’m going to give you a bottom line and then please ask me some questions, but my mantra, well, I have two mantras. I don’t mind showing you. I have a tattoo of a bumblebee. And the Bumblebee is my tagline. ‘Don’t tell me I can’t fly’.. because bumblebees are not supposed to be able to fly. But they do. So don’t tell me I can’t. The other tagline is, ‘don’t assume.. Just ask’.

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Thank you. Thank you so much, Julie. That was amazing. So many poignant points. I’d like to talk about your sore point. And it is like that little trigger, isn’t it? The way that you have visualised for us so that we can picture and really get the concept of what Equity is, and your story just backs that up. Yeah, it really was a very clear message. And thank you so much. Thank you for doing that. And something else that jumped out at me was this assumption, the ideas of assumption that we can assume that somebody is in a particular place, and actually, you know, like yourself, I don’t need any help. I’m independent.. And maybe another person in a situation similar might not be like you are, and, you know.. but where is the respect to actually find out first, and I think that is what’s really important is having that communication. Those communication skills, and I think having events like this, where we can educate. Sunrise Diversity, the organisation that comes out, and actually tries to educate people, hopefully, we won’t get too many triggers on our ‘sore spots’ in the future as we, as we, educate ourselves a little bit more and more.

Speaker 1 – Julie

Well, I suspect Now, you might actually recognise it. So when when when somebody says something or

does something that hits your sore spot, you’re gonna go, oh, Julie said that. Because once you realise you’ve got a sore spot, I’ll tell you a funny one.

Many years ago, we had a small holding and boarding kennels. That was in the days before I needed wheels. My brother in law used to come for the weekend periodically, drive up from Reading. I would know he was there, because I would hear the vacuum cleaner. Now, he thought he was being helpful, because he would arrive, put the kettle on, and then would get the vacuum out to give the house a clean. What he didn’t know was it absolutely destroyed me every time. Because to me, he was telling me, I was a useless housewife. And I was offended and mortified that he thought my house was dirty. It was a house full of children and full of animals. Yeah, probably wasn’t beautifully clean. But it was a pretty happy place. So that’s a sore spot.

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Okay, I know that we’ve got company here. We’ve got a few people in the room that have been listening to this podcast, and you mentioned that you would take questions, but also it’s a space where people can maybe speak from their own personal experience, if anybody’s got anything to say, and if anybody wants to say anything.

Speaker 3 – Rose

Hi, Julie. Thanks for that. Absolutely brilliant presentation. I just wanted to talk about invisible disabilities. Or if you had any comments on that I don’t, I’ve got a few friends who’ve got invisible disabilities, one of them being I know, we all have this, but, quite severe mental health issues for example, and they can’t do things, it debilitates them from going anywhere or doing anything. So yeah, I just wanted, um if you had any thoughts or comments on that, I’m sure you do.

Speaker 1 – Julie

I do. Yes. And.. very often the people with visible disabilities, have also got invisible disabilities. Invisible disabilities… Society almost requires us to walk around with a tattoo, saying, I have an invisible disability, because people are incapable of just putting their radar on and realising that somebody has an additional need. And there’s been the sunflower lanyards as a means of identifying people with autism and any invisible difficulties and needing, having additional needs. And sadly, it went against the people needing that support because, people then, saw those lanyards as a means to go and attack those people, verbally or physically, because it made your vulnerability, visible, the same as my wheelchair is visible of my disability.

So it’s really, really difficult for anyone with additional needs, and if they are hidden.. And I always say, if people see anybody with an obvious disability, that none of us go through life without mental health issues, even if it’s only frustration at what we can’t do. But there are so many layers to all of the difficulties that anybody has. And again, going back to the sore spot, the sore spot also belongs within the invisible disabilities, probably more so. Well, why can’t you keep up? Well, I don’t want to tell you that I’ve got a heart condition, or I have a lung problem. Or that because I have a congenital defect in my leg that you can’t see, walking is painful. Well, why can’t you just run up the stairs? Why can’t you go into that room that is full of people, and it’s really noisy, and it’s got flashing lights? Because if I go into that room, I’m gonna freak. And then you’ll think I’m completely nuts, you know, and it’s those perceptions always. So it’s a really difficult area, and again, it comes down to courage and strength to be able to say to people sometimes, um excuse me, I really want to join in with what you’re doing. But I have some limitations. I’d rather not tell you what they are but, will you support me? That’s hard, really hard. But then that’s Bound on the rest of us to hear that message. And to say, what do you need? You need a quiet corner? Fine. Let’s find one. Do you want to be left on your own? Or do you want company. But it’s difficult, it is hard. But I think as a society, I think we’ve got brave, we’ve got to get braver about talking to people and being open, like we were talking about earlier about our Ukrainian guests. And being upfront, not being ever so British, and saying this is how my house works. So it’s all part of that same thing that we have to be braver to be more open to people, and for people having additional needs to be braver to say, I need a hand. Not an easy answer. There isn’t a straightforward answer.

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Thank you, Julie. Yes, I think being able to ask for help, or not being able to ask for help is probably one of the biggest blocks, isn’t it? Yeah..

Speaker 1 – Julie

I hate it. I hate asking for help. Because I should be able to do it, because I always used to be able to do it. So, it, it is a double whammy. It’s hard, it’s hard to ask. And it’s quite often hard to be asked.

Speaker 4 – Natali

I just want to comment in the fact of you hit a lot of.. in the schools, for example, you can hear that we’re talking more about, about diversity LGBT but, you don’t hear as much about disability, or I normally like to say ‘additional needs’, which is very important, and I don’t know how you see it in society, because I guess there is more in the agenda, to talk about LGBT plus in diversity and to be more accepted. But probably there is not much in my opinion, that I can see that is done to support people with additional needs, even even teaching probably sign language?

Speaker 1 – Julie

I have come to the conclusion that people’s attitudes towards disability are from two or three bases. One of them is despising people with difference because they don’t understand people with difference, therefore it’s easier to despise them. And we can, we can say the word hate because we have hate crime. And I have been the recipient of hate crime. It is not nice and it leaves you knowing how vulnerable you are. There’s another group of people who think that everybody that is saying they have additional needs are just wasters and we’re spinning a line because we want to be given money so we don’t have to work and we can be lazy and do nothing.

And then you have another Group which I’m going to split into two. You’ve got the people who are terrified that one day, they might have additional needs. So they are particularly unpleasant, quite often towards people with additional needs. And then you have other people who already have additional needs, and can be absolutely vile to other people with additional needs, because they are ashamed of their problems, their difficulties, or they would prefer it not to be seen, however it comes out, they can come out and be very spiteful. And I think it’s all of those those layers. But again, I think it’s just the layers that make the colour of our life. And without all those differences, we’ve got nothing to.. if everything was always shiny, white, everything would always be shiny, white and very boring. So all those layers, all those differences, all the difficulties, all of the solutions, all of the colour, and the diversity is what makes everything that we do so special.

Speaker 3 – Rose

Julie, something I highlighted earlier, do you feel that representation in terms of disability is getting better? I can see I’ve asked a bullet question here.. Do you think that representation of disabilities’ getting better, or what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1 – Julie

I would love to say it’s getting better? The Equality Act 2010. It’s 13 years old, it exists people know it exists, and they think it doesn’t mean them. I don’t think it’s any better. I’m not sure it’s worse. It’s just different. But I won’t fly. Not because I’m scared of flying. I’m scared of what they’ll do to my wheelchair. And I’m scared of being left on an aircraft on my own with no support, no access to my wheelchair, no availability to get off the aircraft.

Frank Gardner. Everybody knows Frank Gardener. He, he regularly gets left on aircraft. I was talking to Spencer Watts the other day. He, at 14 had a bad motocross accident and he’s paraplegic. He now does motocross again, but his bike is specially adapted. But he and his wife and children had been on holiday and they were due to come back to Bristol. They were diverted to Birmingham. And they eventually got him off of the aircraft, kept them on there for nearly an hour with two small children. That was really unfair. And then he saw somebody down on the tarmac with a folding wheelchair, no means to get down to it. And then they said, It’s okay, we’ll get you back to Bristol, where your car is by an accessible taxi. Oh, sorry, we couldn’t get one. There’s a coach. And there is video footage of him going up the steps on his backside into this coach. And it’s it’s disgraceful. It is really disgraceful. And no, it’s not getting better. And I.. That’s why I work with a nonpartisan group to try and get better representation in Parliament. Because we have to go at this from the bottom upwards and from the top downwards, and just keep kicking doors open. And I think it’s beholden on all of us, you see something that is wrong, we have to speak up about it. It would be a wonderful world where we’re all allowed to just be people. And it’s not there yet.

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Anybody else want to say anything?

Speaker 5 – Tanya

Yeah I just, more of an observation really. I mean, it’s been lovely and, you know, so inspiring to hear you talk Julie as always. And one of the things that struck me today is that I’ve heard the word courage

and compassion a lot today. And it struck me really sort of when I reflect on the amazing, you know, women and men in my life um, how courage, courage and compassion have been, have really been the things that have supported me as a woman through difficult times. And I think courage and compassion really capture, capture the essence of, of also of International Women’s Day and also about Equity. Because having the courage to, to think about equity and have the courage to recognise when there isn’t equity and and recognise your own part in that perhaps, but also having the compassion to recognise that we’re all different and the compassion to learn and the compassion to change and the compassion to help other people learn and change, and encouraging compassion have been for me words today that I have, I’ve heard quite a lot, which I feel I can identify with, personally..

Speaker 2 – Roshani

May I say that’s probably the ointment of the future isn’t it? Of sorting all this out. Those two things.

Speaker 5 – Tanya

Yes

Speaker 1 – Julie

Something else that I should have said in answer to, to Rose’s question about whether life has improved or not..

Four years ago, a UN rapporteur came to the UK and put in a very damning report to the government and said that the benefits system in this country was a human rights catastrophe. Not was going to be, is. And.. This year, they are coming back to see how much it has improved. O.K.. Well I suspect we all know the answer to that and I’m looking forward to seeing their report. But to me it is really sad. We shouldn’t have to have our government being told how to look after people. There are 14 million people declared with disability. Self declared I have to say. Um, another 7 to 10 million that are carers. Some of whom also have disability.

That’s 20 percent of the population. Of this country.

We shouldn’t have to be talking about disability visible or invisible. As a minority group.

We are a key part of this country, with a huge amount to offer and to share, and to be valued, for what we can, we can bring to the table. And to be allowed to work and supported to work; or to not be pilloried for not being able to work.

And that to me, is also part of looking for Equity.

Because we should all be treated as people. With something valuable to give to the lives around us.

And I get so angry. When I hear somebody say oh they can’t do that. Why not? Er, only got one leg. But they got another one, what you on about? And, when we have problems with, again we’ll go back to wheelchairs… They are now known as a prosthetic appliance. They’re not a wheelchair, they’re made to measure for us. So when you get it smashed up on an aircraft, and they say, it’s alright, the insurance I’ll get you another one. No, it won’t, because it will be one off the shelf and it’s not suitable for us.

So…It’s equity. What we need, to be able to live our lives and to achieve, and to, give back to our families and to our local communities. That’s Equity. I don’t want equality. I’ve never had a equality as a woman, I mean don’t even take me there. Um, it’s so important to remember that whole ethos that we’ve.. Everybody has something to offer, and Something to contribute.. It’s so important.

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Thank you Julie. Okay now we’ve got someone else that would like to, speak as well.

Speaker 6 – Sophie

Thank you. Um yes it’s just interesting Julie what you were saying about how, now 20 percent of the population is, you know, have some kind of additional needs or, will be a carer involved in that. So when we talk about the differences between Equality and Equity and, you hear some people maybe having the view that oh, if I can do this why can’t everyone else; which is kind of your problem that you can’t do it but realistically, 1 out of 5 people, can do these things. They just need,

different stepping stones to be able to get to the same point. And it’s unreasonable to think, just to give everyone the same things and then, you know, everyone should be able to achieve the same thing with the same equipment. But. If you look at that that doesn’t really make any sense and equality is never going to get us very far. Because everyone has unique needs um, and to see that as a disadvantage or something that’s someone’s fault if they can’t get there, just doesn’t make any sense because, most people are capable of achieving the same things, if they given the correct equipment to get there but it just might look different for different people, and just appreciating that that doesn’t mean that they’re less less able or not as clever, or resourceful, or lazy or whatever.. to, you know, to be able to not achieve in

the same way that someone else might be able to achieve it. Doesn’t mean it’s not possible and that we shouldn’t as a society be giving everyone, the chance to get there. And giving them exactly what they need to be able to get there..

Speaker 1 – Julie

Yeah

A quick easy illustration of that. You don’t use a hammer to put a screw into a piece of wood.

Speaker 3 – Rose

Um Julie, I just wanted to go back to something you said earlier about standards. So one of the things close to my heart is that society has a standard of what a person, male or female should look like. So as soon as they see your skin colour or your in a.. you’re a wheelchair user. You know you’re a young person, you’re an older person, there’s this standard of what society’s expectations of you and that’s kind of, really close to my heart at the moment because, I’m in my, what I like to call, Autumn years now and I’m loving it. You know, but I’m very aware of what’s gone before me and what’s to come. But Society has an expectation of what they think is a standard and then, that’s probably a lot of the reason why we all get compartmentalised. Um yeah, so I just wondered if you had any thoughts or comments on that?

Speaker 1 – Julie

I have plenty of thoughts and the comments I might make I won’t put on here because, I really resent the assumption, that the moment that you are declared to be elderly, and I am officially elderly.. I’m still about 20 in my head. I refused to grow up. My husband used to call us recycled teenagers, only twice as much trouble.

Um, I loved being in my fifties. I was terrified of turning 60. And now I’m 73, I, I actually don’t care. And I don’t mind what I say to whom because I’ve got nothing to lose. I’ve had the biggest loss in my life. And that was losing my David. Nothing else can touch me the same as that. So there is only one direction and that’s forward, onward. And being an immovable object.

Other people’s perceptions of me. That’s their problem. It’s not, mine. And I think it is one of the single, most important messages, especially to put over to our younger people, is stop trying to be what you think everybody else says you should be. And what the media shows you you should be.

Be who you are. Be who you want to be. Provided you do no harm to anybody else it doesn’t matter., what other people’s expectations are of you.

Your life is Yours to live.

Mine has been amazing. We haven’t got the time to tell you all of the things I’ve done in my life and I still have a very, very long list. And in fact I will be expecting to get my birthday card from King William for my 100th birthday and I will still be campaigning, because I’ve got too much to do.

I haven’t got time to die, so I’m gonna be around for a lot longer and I’m going to annoy a lot more people.

But… This expectation of aging in many cultures.. The elders of the family are respected. Because you have a lived life. You have loved. You have hated. You have worked. You have slept.

You have learnt. You have experience.

And that’s valuable…

To put that in the bin, is, such a waste. Here we are talking about recycling. All the time.

We should be Recycling the experience and the knowledge of the people who’ve already lived for many many years. And it is so important.

One of the Ukrainians that was over earlier last year, was working in a care home, and she came home one day and she said to me, Julie. Why do people put their old folk into a home?

And I said I can’t really nicely answer that. There are some cases where it is unavoidable but it is far too common in this country, for us, to not be able, or willing to look after our older people. Sometimes able and willing.. it’s a very smudgy area. I think it’s sometimes too easy to say, do you know I can’t manage this anymore. But we equally need to put the support in for families that need… “to not have a phone going off in their pocket…” (phone ringing)

We need to support people.

I was 25 years my husband’s carer. The isolation, that can happen with that. I had to fight the isolation. You fight the losing of friends. We lost our three sons over my husband’s health because they couldn’t deal with it. And they run away. I don’t mean literally run away from home, they were already adults. And there’s 2 grown children there, that never knew they grandfather. And that’s their loss. And. I cannot

break my heart over that because I have family that have chosen me. It is their choice.

But it is difficult. It’s difficult for everybody. To understand how to not be afraid of seeing people unwell. Not being afraid of seeing people becoming elderly. And that devastating, difficulty, of seeing somebody with a dementia. Losing the person that you know and love so well.

My husband had a brain tumour. .. And.

So the person that I loved and lived with for the last 25 years of his life was not the man I married.

But he was the man that I loved. And who loved me. And that was my desperation not to lose him. Not to lose that person. And, the longer he lived, the more intense our loving of each other became.

And I wasn’t afraid of that difference. And he used to be so upset and say. Huh, I’m such a burden, you’re so tired.. and I’d say, hang on a minute… If I was the one in need at the moment, what would you be doing? Right, I would be looking after you. Well shut up them and just get over it. Oh okay. And I used to say awful things to him like.. It’s alright once you’re dead I’ll have a lot of time to sleep. And he used to just laugh at me because that was how we we dealt with it.

But, people are fearful. They’re fearful of difference. They’re fearful of age. They’re fearful of ill health. But again.. Society needs to be braver. Let’s have the courage and compassion back again. And the government needs to apply that in bucket fulls because they cannot keep telling us, that they can’t do this and they can’t do that. There is always a means and a way forward with all of the things that we need in society.

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Thank you so much. That was enlightening and I thought much more about how I’m embraced difference, I’ve always embraced my difference. And I think that’s what puts me in a place of fearlessness. Because all the time that we’re worried about what people think. What are we going to achieve?

So… also about this being, everyone’s got a voice. Hearing the maturer community, um, If I may say Tanya, if I may bring Ace Holds The Space in? For us, at Ace Holds The Space, that’s what we do. That’s why we’re here. We want to hear the voices of all the Community. And we feel that particular young people are missing out, incredibly of listening to their own in their own communities, Physically where they are…

And that’s what they require for wellbeing. I feel. From my research. From my experiences. Being on social media. Trying to deliver self development services to young people. Really, all they require is to be connected to, the community.

Speaker 1 – Julie

And given a big hug.

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Yeah. And the big one is celebrating who you are? My goodness. You know, So, um and yeah, coughing? That’s fine as well! You know, we’re celebrating.. I can’t believe I even found my voice.. I’ve been coughing for the last 4 or 5 days and I didn’t know that I could even open my mouth today so I am.

Speaker 1 – Julie

You have..

Speaker 2 – Roshani

I’m sounding a bit groggy but I’m here. And Thank you so much for inviting me by the way. And if there’s anybody else that really wants to say something, say something now, or forever hold your peace..

But it’s been a wonderful Podcast hasn’t it?

Speaker 4 – Natali

Yes, it’s been amazing, in my opinion. We have shared different experiences, different points of view. From Nature, and being intimate with the sea. The relationship that you have with your David. You’ve gone, through everything that you have experienced in your life and I guess that’s what we are offering here. It’s all what we have… in us, of our impact in life.

So I think it’s just recognising, all the empowerment we’ve got and getting it out and sharing it. Because we all have, a lot to give. And we all have learned a lot through our life.

Speaker 1 – Julie

Blame my husband.. (laughing)

Speaker 2 – Roshani

Oh wonderful, Thank you everybody; thank you.

Speaker 1 – Julie

Thank you all of you..

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